Ambassador Richard Grenell and EU Diplomat Clash on Decriminalizing Homosexuality

By Stefano Gennarini, J.D. | December 19, 2019

I was invited, amid other media and NGOs, to a U.S. event at the United Nations yesterday. It was billed as the first-ever U.S. sponsored event at the UN on the decriminalization of homosexuality. At the outset, U.S. Ambassador to Germany Richard Grenell read out the names of 69 countries where homosexuality is criminalized and said they should be named and shamed on a daily basis at the United Nations.

My Friday Fax report on the event will soon come out, but I wanted to provide a transcript of the final exchange of the event between Richard Grenell, U.S. Ambassadro to Germany and Mr. Christophe Forax, the EU diplomat in charge of human rights at the EU mission to the UN. The exchange was the most interesting part of the event, and it really illustrates well the geopolitical rivalry of the U.S. and EU on social issues.

FORAX – Thank you very much for organizing this debate and thanks to the US mission. I appreciate the interactive nature of the discussion so I will give you a few remarks off the cuff.

I think it’s very important to place the issue of LGBTIQ as part of a broader progressive comprehensive human rights agenda. We Cannot isolate LGBTIQ rights and disassociate them and see them in isolation from the rest. For the credibility of our efforts it’s also important that we are coherent, we are coherent with all human rights and all their ramifications and do so regardless of the country involved in our discussion. But I also wanted to echo the words of my friend and colleague Richard from Canada, in saying that tolerance and acceptance cannot just be a question of goodwill. It’s a question also of adaptation. So I think its important as he did to put the emphasis on the need to accompany legislative measures with comprehensive sexual education, for example, to ensure that people understand the reality they are faced with and fully accept it.

I also support fully what Jessica said from OutRight International, in saying that decriminalization is of course the most urgent matter that needs to be addressed, in particular in those countries where homosexuality can lead to the death penalty. But this has to be seen as part of a process, a process that should lead to true equality in society and in all the law everywhere. That is why for example in the EU we are currently discussing an equal treatment directive that when finalized will include considerably the legal protections against discrimination for LGBTI people, not just for death.

I also wanted to comment on what Mr. Moore was saying about the role of religious leaders. I believe that it is Important to partner with authoritative voices in order to make perhaps our message more credible and ensure that it reaches the parts of society more reticent to listen to our voices. However, we should not underestimate the fact that it is often religious people that are a rather negative force when it comes to LGBT rights. I rather speak about my own religion which is Christianity. Very often Christian leaders play a negative in the role in this discussion.

With these rather unstructured remarks, I thank you for this opportunity.

GRENELL – I just want to make one point very clear. When President Trump advised Vice-President Pence to sign and really move this initiative forward our discussions were very clear. Which is that this is a decriminalization of homosexuality in 69 countries effort. This is something we feel very strongly unites everybody. When you talk about decriminalization you get the religious community involved, you get left, right, and center involved.

I appreciate some of the questions we had here and some of the criticism and some of the pushing. I served at the United Nations for eight years and I can tell you one thing. When you try to do too much you do absolutely nothing. And It’s a talkfest that never ends.

And so what we are trying to do is unite around something that is absolutely a uniting issue, which is the decriminalization of homosexuality. I want to work very hard to make sure that we define this first step as something we all move forward together on and that we cannot tear each other apart and try and question what needs to be done in addition. There are many issues. I welcome your leadership on steps two through one hundred. But what we are trying to do first is move together and be as united as possible on step one, which is the decriminalization of homosexuality. It’s something that unites us. Let’s not tear us apart on this. I am asking that we move together.

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